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	<title>Comments on: Joseph Duncan Update #3: Kant vs Taylor</title>
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		<title>By: Maryann Spikes</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-2688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maryann Spikes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[...if we truly feel that we do not have free will and cannot control our thoughts and behavior, this will be reflected in our choices, especially if we think that in the end, none of it matters.  Look at Joseph Duncan’s blog at http://fifthnail.blogspot.com as an example, albeit an extreme one.  To ask if Duncan’s choice of evil was compelled begs the question of whether or not evil is even a real option.  Did Duncan commit evil?  Was he free to have chosen better, and would it have been essentially better than what he chose, or is “better” an illusion, is there no alternative to evil, because there is no essential good, and therefore no evil (no privation, absence, of essential good), and so he did not choose evil in the first place?  Click on my name to explore this further.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;if we truly feel that we do not have free will and cannot control our thoughts and behavior, this will be reflected in our choices, especially if we think that in the end, none of it matters.  Look at Joseph Duncan’s blog at <a href="http://fifthnail.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://fifthnail.blogspot.com</a> as an example, albeit an extreme one.  To ask if Duncan’s choice of evil was compelled begs the question of whether or not evil is even a real option.  Did Duncan commit evil?  Was he free to have chosen better, and would it have been essentially better than what he chose, or is “better” an illusion, is there no alternative to evil, because there is no essential good, and therefore no evil (no privation, absence, of essential good), and so he did not choose evil in the first place?  Click on my name to explore this further.</p>
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		<title>By: Maryann Spikes</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-2682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maryann Spikes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=200#comment-2682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excerpt from my article on the Golden Rule, largely based on Prof Rosenstand&#039;s text...you can find that article by clicking on my name:  &quot;Kant’s criticism of the GR is answered this way:  The Golden Rule (treat others how you would want to be treated) includes the Platinum Rule (treat others how they would want to be treated), considering we would want others to put themselves in our shoes in their interactions with us.  So you should put yourself in the shoes of a person who genuinely needs help and help them even if, in the same situation, you would not ask for it.  However, this does not mean we would, in the process of putting ourselves in the other’s shoes, adopt someone’s values which conflict with God’s values, as becomes obvious in answer to another criticism of the Golden Rule, this time from my friend Seph:  &quot;‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,’ … of course means that if you are a masochist you would like others to treat you poorly, and will thus treat them poorly as well...probably not the best social program.”  A masochist is not following the Golden Rule when s/he treats him/herself poorly, and s/he knows it, or else s/he would have no idea of what &quot;treat poorly&quot; means in order to put it into action.  It is like a twisted game of “opposite day”.  This Golden Rule dialectic shows how granting negative and positive rights does not mean helping people who should be helping themselves:  Thesis:  Give others what they want, Antithesis:  Give others what you want, Synthesis:  Give others what a self in its right mind would want.  A self in its right mind would not want to be helped (to take resources from others) when it should be helping itself.&quot;  

The Golden Rule is both rational and intuitive (the &#039;fellow-feeling&#039; you menionted--self is other, other is self).  My article explains how it is essential to every moral theory, and that where every moral theory goes wrong is when it departs from the GR.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excerpt from my article on the Golden Rule, largely based on Prof Rosenstand&#8217;s text&#8230;you can find that article by clicking on my name:  &#8220;Kant’s criticism of the GR is answered this way:  The Golden Rule (treat others how you would want to be treated) includes the Platinum Rule (treat others how they would want to be treated), considering we would want others to put themselves in our shoes in their interactions with us.  So you should put yourself in the shoes of a person who genuinely needs help and help them even if, in the same situation, you would not ask for it.  However, this does not mean we would, in the process of putting ourselves in the other’s shoes, adopt someone’s values which conflict with God’s values, as becomes obvious in answer to another criticism of the Golden Rule, this time from my friend Seph:  &#8220;‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,’ … of course means that if you are a masochist you would like others to treat you poorly, and will thus treat them poorly as well&#8230;probably not the best social program.”  A masochist is not following the Golden Rule when s/he treats him/herself poorly, and s/he knows it, or else s/he would have no idea of what &#8220;treat poorly&#8221; means in order to put it into action.  It is like a twisted game of “opposite day”.  This Golden Rule dialectic shows how granting negative and positive rights does not mean helping people who should be helping themselves:  Thesis:  Give others what they want, Antithesis:  Give others what you want, Synthesis:  Give others what a self in its right mind would want.  A self in its right mind would not want to be helped (to take resources from others) when it should be helping itself.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The Golden Rule is both rational and intuitive (the &#8216;fellow-feeling&#8217; you menionted&#8211;self is other, other is self).  My article explains how it is essential to every moral theory, and that where every moral theory goes wrong is when it departs from the GR.</p>
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		<title>By: sandrar</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-2474</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sandrar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=200#comment-2474</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post... nice! I love your blog.  :) Cheers! Sandra. R.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post&#8230; nice! I love your blog.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Cheers! Sandra. R.</p>
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		<title>By: Nina Rosenstand</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-1560</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nina Rosenstand]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=200#comment-1560</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dwight,

I agree, to some extent: Kant’s analysis of evil is flawed, for one thing because it has to cover the spectrum from the “little” evil to the extreme forms. I suspect that the religious connection is the root cause of this flaw: From the time of Aquinas the concept of evil has been linked up with disobeying God’s natural law, and the result is a too-broad brush; “everyone does it.” It does not reach the level of horrors that someone like Duncan reveals to us. But go back to the time of Augustine and you get a more interesting version (borrowed from Plotinus): evil as &lt;em&gt;privatio&lt;/em&gt;, the lack of God’s presence, or shall we say in modern terms, the lack of goodness/compassion. Makes it sound almost like Taylor’s analysis!

 I like your distinction between the banality of ordinary evil and radical evil—mainly because I, too, make that distinction (with a different choice of words) in the new 2009, 6th edition of my ethics textbook!(The Arendt-Zimbardo comparison I referred to in my first Duncan post, April 30.)  Philip Zimbardo carries Arendt’s analysis into the post-Abu Ghraib era, and Arendt’s brilliant concept is certainly a marvelous addition to our modern vocabulary, but both she and Zimbardo seem to forget to reserve a place for the acts of deliberate harmdoing for the sake of harm. But, interestingly, somebody like Eichmann whom Arendt uses as the primary example of evil’s banality, and if not he, then certainly other Nazi officials with executive powers, would probably qualify as agents of radical evil.

However, whichever form “evil” takes, I think Kant has a point that it does involve self-centered (not necessarily self-interested) actions, done with the full understanding of their moral wrongness. In &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/rbbr/toc.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Religion Within the Limits of Reason Alone&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt; he presents the ultimate version of this as evil, and sees it as part of the human condition that we are supposed to rise above--he even calls it &quot;radical evil.&quot; To my recollection he does not include the kind of extreme harmdoing that Duncan represents, however, but I&#039;d have to go back and re-read it. As for the Golden Rule: as much as it is not a cure-all, and sometimes has rather monstrous results, such as you describe, to me it represents (or is supposed to represent) some basic, minimal comprehension that others are people, too. Not the gracious recognition of the Other’s humanity á la Levinas, but a simple “We’re all in this together.” Better than nothing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dwight,</p>
<p>I agree, to some extent: Kant’s analysis of evil is flawed, for one thing because it has to cover the spectrum from the “little” evil to the extreme forms. I suspect that the religious connection is the root cause of this flaw: From the time of Aquinas the concept of evil has been linked up with disobeying God’s natural law, and the result is a too-broad brush; “everyone does it.” It does not reach the level of horrors that someone like Duncan reveals to us. But go back to the time of Augustine and you get a more interesting version (borrowed from Plotinus): evil as <em>privatio</em>, the lack of God’s presence, or shall we say in modern terms, the lack of goodness/compassion. Makes it sound almost like Taylor’s analysis!</p>
<p> I like your distinction between the banality of ordinary evil and radical evil—mainly because I, too, make that distinction (with a different choice of words) in the new 2009, 6th edition of my ethics textbook!(The Arendt-Zimbardo comparison I referred to in my first Duncan post, April 30.)  Philip Zimbardo carries Arendt’s analysis into the post-Abu Ghraib era, and Arendt’s brilliant concept is certainly a marvelous addition to our modern vocabulary, but both she and Zimbardo seem to forget to reserve a place for the acts of deliberate harmdoing for the sake of harm. But, interestingly, somebody like Eichmann whom Arendt uses as the primary example of evil’s banality, and if not he, then certainly other Nazi officials with executive powers, would probably qualify as agents of radical evil.</p>
<p>However, whichever form “evil” takes, I think Kant has a point that it does involve self-centered (not necessarily self-interested) actions, done with the full understanding of their moral wrongness. In <a href="http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/rbbr/toc.html" rel="nofollow"><em>Religion Within the Limits of Reason Alone</em></a> he presents the ultimate version of this as evil, and sees it as part of the human condition that we are supposed to rise above&#8211;he even calls it &#8220;radical evil.&#8221; To my recollection he does not include the kind of extreme harmdoing that Duncan represents, however, but I&#8217;d have to go back and re-read it. As for the Golden Rule: as much as it is not a cure-all, and sometimes has rather monstrous results, such as you describe, to me it represents (or is supposed to represent) some basic, minimal comprehension that others are people, too. Not the gracious recognition of the Other’s humanity á la Levinas, but a simple “We’re all in this together.” Better than nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Dwight Furrow</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-1555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dwight Furrow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=200#comment-1555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nina,

I agree with you that what you call Taylor&#039;s &quot;emotionalism&quot; --Duncan&#039;s lack of compassion--doesn&#039;t quite explain our revulsion at Duncan&#039;s behavior. But I don&#039;t think Kant helps much here.

Kant&#039;s account of immoral behavior undergoes some development. As I recall in the &quot;Groundwork&quot; (1785?) immoral behavior is any action that cannot be universally willed without contradiction. This would mean lots of ordinary acts of compassion would be immoral because they cannot be universalized. This hardly provides us with grounds for revulsion! 

In the Critique of Practical Reason (1788 ?) he thinks of immoral action as the attempt to employ &quot;self-love&quot; as an unconditional practical principle. In other words, acts motivated by pure self-interest are immoral. These would be cases in which I aim at a state of affairs that serves my interests and I simply don&#039;t consider the humanity of another person except incidentally as it might help me bring about that state of affairs. So I treat the humanity of another person only as a means to my own ends.

Much garden variety immorality--ordinary deception, thievery, and some rape and murder--is motivated by self-interest in which the humanity of others is ignored, and Kant&#039;s explanation of these cases seems to be in the right direction. 

But in Duncan&#039;s case, the humanity of others is not just incidentally involved in his quest to promote his interests. He actively seeks to violate the humanity of his victims, independently of his interests. The object of his will just is the dehumanization of another person.

In my upcoming book, I distinguish between ordinary evil and radical evil. Ordinary evil arises from ordinary people coping badly with their situation, acting from excessive, misplaced anger, fear, resentment, etc.--Arendt&#039;s the banality of evil. Radical evil chooses evil because it is evil--this describes Duncan. It seems to me Kant is describing ordinary evil. I don&#039;t think he has conceptualized radical evil. (although my knowledge of Kant is well short of comprehensive)

I think we find Duncan&#039;s behavior revolting because at a certain level we cannot understand it. All of us are self-interested much of the time and we understand that motive rather well. Most of us, thankfully, don&#039;t recognize dehumanization as something good it itself.

As to the golden rule, I&#039;m not a big fan. Duncan seems to oscillate between utter narcissism and self-hatred. In those moments of self-hatred, the golden rule will be a monstrous doctrine. Perhaps even a true narcissist is indifferent to how others treat him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nina,</p>
<p>I agree with you that what you call Taylor&#8217;s &#8220;emotionalism&#8221; &#8211;Duncan&#8217;s lack of compassion&#8211;doesn&#8217;t quite explain our revulsion at Duncan&#8217;s behavior. But I don&#8217;t think Kant helps much here.</p>
<p>Kant&#8217;s account of immoral behavior undergoes some development. As I recall in the &#8220;Groundwork&#8221; (1785?) immoral behavior is any action that cannot be universally willed without contradiction. This would mean lots of ordinary acts of compassion would be immoral because they cannot be universalized. This hardly provides us with grounds for revulsion! </p>
<p>In the Critique of Practical Reason (1788 ?) he thinks of immoral action as the attempt to employ &#8220;self-love&#8221; as an unconditional practical principle. In other words, acts motivated by pure self-interest are immoral. These would be cases in which I aim at a state of affairs that serves my interests and I simply don&#8217;t consider the humanity of another person except incidentally as it might help me bring about that state of affairs. So I treat the humanity of another person only as a means to my own ends.</p>
<p>Much garden variety immorality&#8211;ordinary deception, thievery, and some rape and murder&#8211;is motivated by self-interest in which the humanity of others is ignored, and Kant&#8217;s explanation of these cases seems to be in the right direction. </p>
<p>But in Duncan&#8217;s case, the humanity of others is not just incidentally involved in his quest to promote his interests. He actively seeks to violate the humanity of his victims, independently of his interests. The object of his will just is the dehumanization of another person.</p>
<p>In my upcoming book, I distinguish between ordinary evil and radical evil. Ordinary evil arises from ordinary people coping badly with their situation, acting from excessive, misplaced anger, fear, resentment, etc.&#8211;Arendt&#8217;s the banality of evil. Radical evil chooses evil because it is evil&#8211;this describes Duncan. It seems to me Kant is describing ordinary evil. I don&#8217;t think he has conceptualized radical evil. (although my knowledge of Kant is well short of comprehensive)</p>
<p>I think we find Duncan&#8217;s behavior revolting because at a certain level we cannot understand it. All of us are self-interested much of the time and we understand that motive rather well. Most of us, thankfully, don&#8217;t recognize dehumanization as something good it itself.</p>
<p>As to the golden rule, I&#8217;m not a big fan. Duncan seems to oscillate between utter narcissism and self-hatred. In those moments of self-hatred, the golden rule will be a monstrous doctrine. Perhaps even a true narcissist is indifferent to how others treat him.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Moloney</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/15/joseph-duncan-update-3-kant-vs-taylor/#comment-1553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Moloney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=200#comment-1553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems that the love of pleasure diminishes and finally eradicates compassion.  It is not the love of any pleasure that does this, but the pleasure one has in being cruel.  If there were no pleasure in being cruel, it does not seem that anyone would bother to be cruel.  To value the experience of a cruel pleasure more than a human life is seemingly the height of unreasonableness.  I would argue that a cruel pleasure is an unreasonable pleasure and, therefore, an unnecessary pleasure, and I am saying the very least.  I would also argue that an unreasonable pleasure is one that cannot be enjoyed because I would argue that the enjoyment of a pleasure depends upon its reasonableness.  An unreasonable pleasure is a meaningless pleasure, as meaning is found in reason.  There is no intellectual satisfaction found in meaningless pleasure.  People kill and rape for a pleasure they will never enjoy.  Even if there is pleasure in being unreasonable to others, there is no enjoyment in it.  On the other hand, the more reasonable we become the more we enjoy pleasure, even pleasures that might be considered insignificant by others.

I do not think that reason and emotion can  be separated.  Some may hold the view that emotional people are unreasonable.  It can be true that some people are emotional because they are unreasonable, but that does not mean that emotion itself is unreasonable.  It would seem that emotion can be quite reasonable.  Indeed, it would seem unreasonable not to be emotional at times.  It seems also that those that are unreasonable toward us are those that are insensitive to our feelings, either because of their unreasonableness or because of the ignorance that follows upon their unreasonableness.  We are angered by those that are thoughtless to us because we consider their thoughtlessness due their unreasonableness toward us.  Killers and rapists can be people that are emotionless.

It may be that compassion is the premier emotion.  Compassion does not belong to ignorant people nor does it belong to unreasonable people.  I have to think that compassion follows upon knowledge and since reason follow upon knowledge it can be said that compassion follows upon reason.  One has to know when and where to be compassionate and especially to whom to be compassionate.  The person that is most reasonable to others would be the same person that is most compassionate to others.  Simply being reasonable to someone seems to be a form of compassion.  I would think that compassion is an indication of a high degree of intellectual perfection.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the love of pleasure diminishes and finally eradicates compassion.  It is not the love of any pleasure that does this, but the pleasure one has in being cruel.  If there were no pleasure in being cruel, it does not seem that anyone would bother to be cruel.  To value the experience of a cruel pleasure more than a human life is seemingly the height of unreasonableness.  I would argue that a cruel pleasure is an unreasonable pleasure and, therefore, an unnecessary pleasure, and I am saying the very least.  I would also argue that an unreasonable pleasure is one that cannot be enjoyed because I would argue that the enjoyment of a pleasure depends upon its reasonableness.  An unreasonable pleasure is a meaningless pleasure, as meaning is found in reason.  There is no intellectual satisfaction found in meaningless pleasure.  People kill and rape for a pleasure they will never enjoy.  Even if there is pleasure in being unreasonable to others, there is no enjoyment in it.  On the other hand, the more reasonable we become the more we enjoy pleasure, even pleasures that might be considered insignificant by others.</p>
<p>I do not think that reason and emotion can  be separated.  Some may hold the view that emotional people are unreasonable.  It can be true that some people are emotional because they are unreasonable, but that does not mean that emotion itself is unreasonable.  It would seem that emotion can be quite reasonable.  Indeed, it would seem unreasonable not to be emotional at times.  It seems also that those that are unreasonable toward us are those that are insensitive to our feelings, either because of their unreasonableness or because of the ignorance that follows upon their unreasonableness.  We are angered by those that are thoughtless to us because we consider their thoughtlessness due their unreasonableness toward us.  Killers and rapists can be people that are emotionless.</p>
<p>It may be that compassion is the premier emotion.  Compassion does not belong to ignorant people nor does it belong to unreasonable people.  I have to think that compassion follows upon knowledge and since reason follow upon knowledge it can be said that compassion follows upon reason.  One has to know when and where to be compassionate and especially to whom to be compassionate.  The person that is most reasonable to others would be the same person that is most compassionate to others.  Simply being reasonable to someone seems to be a form of compassion.  I would think that compassion is an indication of a high degree of intellectual perfection.</p>
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