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	<title>Comments on: Mopers Unite!</title>
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		<title>By: Ethan Soutar-Rau</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1601</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ethan Soutar-Rau]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Most of the discussion about melancholy here seems to focus on the common definition; melancholy as depression or gloominess. If you read the article that way, then the whole thing looks like garbage.

However, it doesn&#039;t seem that is what Wilson means when he writes the word melancholy. The primary example that he draws upon is the life and work of John Keats, a man who resisted falling into depression and despair despite an incredibly painful life. In fact, he says, Keats found beauty in his pain that transcended his suffering. In Keats mind, melancholy was not the dulling of emotion and experience, but rather a sharp feeling of anguish. That doesn&#039;t sound like depression to me, it sounds like something much more interesting. 

Why does Keats call that inspirational anguish melancholy? He&#039;s not talking about depression. Instead he is taking a page from John Milton who in 1633 invented an entirely new kind of Melancholy in his poem &quot;Il Penseroso&quot;:

&quot;Hail divinest Melancholy,
Whose Saintly visage is too bright
To hit the Sense of human sight;
And therfore to our weaker view,
Ore laid with black staid Wisdoms hue.&quot;

Milton&#039;s Melancholy is a radiant goddess of inspiration, cloaked in blackness so that men would not be overcome by the sight of her. This isn&#039;t depression at all.  Milton&#039;s redefinition of melancholy might be painful, but it is never dreary. Rather than being a pit of despair, Milton sees melancholy as the wellspring of genius. 

Just for fun here are links to excellent annotated copies of Milton&#039;s poems &quot;L&#039;Allegro&quot; and &quot;Il Penseroso&quot; which were written as a pair and make a lot more sense if they are read together.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/l&#039;allegro/
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/penseroso/

And for contrast a expression of a more tradtional melancholy:

http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/07/01]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the discussion about melancholy here seems to focus on the common definition; melancholy as depression or gloominess. If you read the article that way, then the whole thing looks like garbage.</p>
<p>However, it doesn&#8217;t seem that is what Wilson means when he writes the word melancholy. The primary example that he draws upon is the life and work of John Keats, a man who resisted falling into depression and despair despite an incredibly painful life. In fact, he says, Keats found beauty in his pain that transcended his suffering. In Keats mind, melancholy was not the dulling of emotion and experience, but rather a sharp feeling of anguish. That doesn&#8217;t sound like depression to me, it sounds like something much more interesting. </p>
<p>Why does Keats call that inspirational anguish melancholy? He&#8217;s not talking about depression. Instead he is taking a page from John Milton who in 1633 invented an entirely new kind of Melancholy in his poem &#8220;Il Penseroso&#8221;:</p>
<p>&#8220;Hail divinest Melancholy,<br />
Whose Saintly visage is too bright<br />
To hit the Sense of human sight;<br />
And therfore to our weaker view,<br />
Ore laid with black staid Wisdoms hue.&#8221;</p>
<p>Milton&#8217;s Melancholy is a radiant goddess of inspiration, cloaked in blackness so that men would not be overcome by the sight of her. This isn&#8217;t depression at all.  Milton&#8217;s redefinition of melancholy might be painful, but it is never dreary. Rather than being a pit of despair, Milton sees melancholy as the wellspring of genius. </p>
<p>Just for fun here are links to excellent annotated copies of Milton&#8217;s poems &#8220;L&#8217;Allegro&#8221; and &#8220;Il Penseroso&#8221; which were written as a pair and make a lot more sense if they are read together.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/l&#039;allegro/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/l&#039;allegro/</a><br />
<a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/penseroso/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/penseroso/</a></p>
<p>And for contrast a expression of a more tradtional melancholy:</p>
<p><a href="http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/07/01" rel="nofollow">http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/07/01</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dwight Furrow</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dwight Furrow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 00:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have an interesting contrast in the comments. Charlotte is the stoic: &quot;My own method of overcoming ignorance and despair (to be aware of serious issues but not give up) is to dull everything down. Whenever I encounter negative events, I view it as objectively and neutrally as possible (even things that are happening to me personally)&quot;

Huan is the Nietzschean:&quot;..to seek the greatest of challenges and obstacles in order to overcome them. This brings out the greatest creativity of a human being, and it would feel extraordinarily meaningful. In essence, the worst things get, the stronger the “enemy”, the more thrilling and meaningful it will be to defeat them.&quot;

Two classic ways of dealing with the &quot;slings and arrows of outrageous fortune&quot;--both better than wallowing in melancholy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have an interesting contrast in the comments. Charlotte is the stoic: &#8220;My own method of overcoming ignorance and despair (to be aware of serious issues but not give up) is to dull everything down. Whenever I encounter negative events, I view it as objectively and neutrally as possible (even things that are happening to me personally)&#8221;</p>
<p>Huan is the Nietzschean:&#8221;..to seek the greatest of challenges and obstacles in order to overcome them. This brings out the greatest creativity of a human being, and it would feel extraordinarily meaningful. In essence, the worst things get, the stronger the “enemy”, the more thrilling and meaningful it will be to defeat them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Two classic ways of dealing with the &#8220;slings and arrows of outrageous fortune&#8221;&#8211;both better than wallowing in melancholy.</p>
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		<title>By: Rida Alvi</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rida Alvi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Huan&#039;s post was fate, because I believe my post leads well off of his. 

For one to experience true happiness, he/she must know what pain and sorrow feel like, and thus, Wilson urges people to wallow in melancholy to renew their idea of happiness. Like Charlotte said, if you are happy all the time, you live in a paradox. If you feel all different kinds of happiness all the time, then the lowest level of happiness, or the closest level to melancholy, will feel like sadness or depression. 

While I don&#039;t agree with the extent of Wilson&#039;s proposal, he had the right idea. It will also lead to appreciation and gratefulness, which are some of the highest form of happiness, in my opinion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Huan&#8217;s post was fate, because I believe my post leads well off of his. </p>
<p>For one to experience true happiness, he/she must know what pain and sorrow feel like, and thus, Wilson urges people to wallow in melancholy to renew their idea of happiness. Like Charlotte said, if you are happy all the time, you live in a paradox. If you feel all different kinds of happiness all the time, then the lowest level of happiness, or the closest level to melancholy, will feel like sadness or depression. </p>
<p>While I don&#8217;t agree with the extent of Wilson&#8217;s proposal, he had the right idea. It will also lead to appreciation and gratefulness, which are some of the highest form of happiness, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Huan</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Huan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Wilson is simply misconstruing existential ideas, I mean instead of seeking melancholy I&#039;d say it&#039;s more of like a &quot;love of suffering&quot; mentality. The whole article seems to hint at that the happiness obtained from complacency is one that heavily lowers the human potential, but the reason for avoiding this phenomenon given was mainly the possibility of a catastrophy due to our lack of awareness. 

It seems that Wilson is simply suggesting that in order to avoid this catastrophy, we must remove ourselves from happiness and open ourselves up to melancholy. The problem with this argument is that it would convince no one, and as Professor Furrow pointed out it could easily lead to no good. 

As for Charlette&#039;s question of what other options there are for living life, I&#039;d say the &quot;love of suffering&quot; mentality is quite a bit more meaningful and effective. Mainly this isn&#039;t to say that one must remain in a state of melancholy all the time, but to seek the greatest of challenges and obstacles in order to overcome them. This brings out the greatest creativity of a human being, and it would feel extraordinarily meaningful. In essence, the worst things get, the stronger the &quot;enemy&quot;, the more thrilling and meaningful it will be to defeat them. This will allow one to avoid complacency and mindless pleasure seeking, and fully disclose themself to the absurdity of life. 

I would like to think that this is what Wilson was hinting at, but at least from the quote Professor Furrow posted it seems like Wilson completely failed the delivery of the idea.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Wilson is simply misconstruing existential ideas, I mean instead of seeking melancholy I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s more of like a &#8220;love of suffering&#8221; mentality. The whole article seems to hint at that the happiness obtained from complacency is one that heavily lowers the human potential, but the reason for avoiding this phenomenon given was mainly the possibility of a catastrophy due to our lack of awareness. </p>
<p>It seems that Wilson is simply suggesting that in order to avoid this catastrophy, we must remove ourselves from happiness and open ourselves up to melancholy. The problem with this argument is that it would convince no one, and as Professor Furrow pointed out it could easily lead to no good. </p>
<p>As for Charlette&#8217;s question of what other options there are for living life, I&#8217;d say the &#8220;love of suffering&#8221; mentality is quite a bit more meaningful and effective. Mainly this isn&#8217;t to say that one must remain in a state of melancholy all the time, but to seek the greatest of challenges and obstacles in order to overcome them. This brings out the greatest creativity of a human being, and it would feel extraordinarily meaningful. In essence, the worst things get, the stronger the &#8220;enemy&#8221;, the more thrilling and meaningful it will be to defeat them. This will allow one to avoid complacency and mindless pleasure seeking, and fully disclose themself to the absurdity of life. </p>
<p>I would like to think that this is what Wilson was hinting at, but at least from the quote Professor Furrow posted it seems like Wilson completely failed the delivery of the idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlette Lin</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1583</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charlette Lin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder if the amount of &quot;happiness&quot; you experience correlates with the amount of &quot;sadness&quot; you experience.

That seems to be what Wilson&#039;s article hints at somewhat--if we superficially experience “happy happy happy!” then we would be living a paradox, so we need to embrace the good and the bad in order to really live life.

But… what are we looking for in life then if not happiness?  Is that not what most strive for?  I guess people are never supposed to really reach their happy conclusion—they are always supposed to be working towards that goal, and enjoy working for it.  We have to “enjoy the journey” as the cliché says.

Eric G. Wilson  asked, “How can so many people be happy in the midst of all the problems that beset our globe — not only the collective and apocalyptic ills but also those particular irritations that bedevil our everyday existences, those money issues and marital spats, those stifling vocations and lonely dawns?”

I do not think people can deal with all of that.  I am only aware of a few major problems that we are experiencing on this world and I am already on the verge of despair.  I think it is a defensive mechanism for people to be ignorant.  If a person were to live his/her life constantly aware of all the suffering happens in this world, he/she would probably be extremely miserable.  It may be unfortunate that people are like this, but can we really expect for the majority to be any different? 

My own method of overcoming ignorance and despair (to be aware of serious issues but not give up) is to dull everything down.  Whenever I encounter negative events, I view it as objectively and neutrally as possible (even things that are happening to me personally).  As a result, I am “unhappy” a lot less, but I also do not feel the heights of happiness that I did before.  When good things happen, I do not see it as exciting anymore.

I wonder what other people do.  Do you sacrifice the peaks and the trenches of your emotions to avoid the lowest times, or do you “embrace” it all like Wilson suggests?  If neither, what else can be done to live life?

If we stop thinking about “I want to be happy I want to be happy I want to be happy”, would that really change our lives much?  I do think that I, among many people, obsess about happiness too much, and that relaxing a bit on that issue may help.  However, would we really be doing anything differently?  We would still be attempting to accomplish what we want in life… ultimately, to be happy…  or what?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the amount of &#8220;happiness&#8221; you experience correlates with the amount of &#8220;sadness&#8221; you experience.</p>
<p>That seems to be what Wilson&#8217;s article hints at somewhat&#8211;if we superficially experience “happy happy happy!” then we would be living a paradox, so we need to embrace the good and the bad in order to really live life.</p>
<p>But… what are we looking for in life then if not happiness?  Is that not what most strive for?  I guess people are never supposed to really reach their happy conclusion—they are always supposed to be working towards that goal, and enjoy working for it.  We have to “enjoy the journey” as the cliché says.</p>
<p>Eric G. Wilson  asked, “How can so many people be happy in the midst of all the problems that beset our globe — not only the collective and apocalyptic ills but also those particular irritations that bedevil our everyday existences, those money issues and marital spats, those stifling vocations and lonely dawns?”</p>
<p>I do not think people can deal with all of that.  I am only aware of a few major problems that we are experiencing on this world and I am already on the verge of despair.  I think it is a defensive mechanism for people to be ignorant.  If a person were to live his/her life constantly aware of all the suffering happens in this world, he/she would probably be extremely miserable.  It may be unfortunate that people are like this, but can we really expect for the majority to be any different? </p>
<p>My own method of overcoming ignorance and despair (to be aware of serious issues but not give up) is to dull everything down.  Whenever I encounter negative events, I view it as objectively and neutrally as possible (even things that are happening to me personally).  As a result, I am “unhappy” a lot less, but I also do not feel the heights of happiness that I did before.  When good things happen, I do not see it as exciting anymore.</p>
<p>I wonder what other people do.  Do you sacrifice the peaks and the trenches of your emotions to avoid the lowest times, or do you “embrace” it all like Wilson suggests?  If neither, what else can be done to live life?</p>
<p>If we stop thinking about “I want to be happy I want to be happy I want to be happy”, would that really change our lives much?  I do think that I, among many people, obsess about happiness too much, and that relaxing a bit on that issue may help.  However, would we really be doing anything differently?  We would still be attempting to accomplish what we want in life… ultimately, to be happy…  or what?</p>
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		<title>By: Nina Rosenstand</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1581</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nina Rosenstand]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dwight,
What a fun article! I&#039;ll get back to that when I&#039;ve read the whole thing. In the meantime I&#039;m reminded of one of my favorite Nietzsche lines(quoted from memory): &quot;Man does not seek happiness; only the Englishman does!&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dwight,<br />
What a fun article! I&#8217;ll get back to that when I&#8217;ve read the whole thing. In the meantime I&#8217;m reminded of one of my favorite Nietzsche lines(quoted from memory): &#8220;Man does not seek happiness; only the Englishman does!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Moloney</title>
		<link>http://philosophyonthemesa.com/2008/08/25/mopers-unite/#comment-1579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Moloney]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://philosophyonthemesa.wordpress.com/?p=221#comment-1579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would make a distinction between sadness and melancholy.  Both can be vague in meaning, but sadness brings to my mind the idea that it is caused by others.  I think of melancholy or depression as something caused by oneself.  Even if this is not true, sadness is something that has to be endured, while depression is something we must eradicate ourselves.  I do not think that someone can be happy and depressed at the same time.  In fact, depression seems to be contrary to happiness.  Depression can be a starting point for happiness in the sense that when we work to eradicate depression we are moving toward happiness.  Depression seems to be associated with those that equate happiness with contentment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would make a distinction between sadness and melancholy.  Both can be vague in meaning, but sadness brings to my mind the idea that it is caused by others.  I think of melancholy or depression as something caused by oneself.  Even if this is not true, sadness is something that has to be endured, while depression is something we must eradicate ourselves.  I do not think that someone can be happy and depressed at the same time.  In fact, depression seems to be contrary to happiness.  Depression can be a starting point for happiness in the sense that when we work to eradicate depression we are moving toward happiness.  Depression seems to be associated with those that equate happiness with contentment.</p>
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